Live coverage: Donnelly, Braun clash in Indiana debate

Sen. Joe DonnellyJoseph (Joe) Simon DonnellyEx-Sen. Joe Donnelly endorses Biden Lobbying world 70 former senators propose bipartisan caucus for incumbents MORE (D-Ind.) is set to square off in a Monday night debate against businessman and former state Rep. Mike Braun (R), in one of the country’s most competitive Senate races.

Donnelly is one of 10 Senate Democrats up for reelection in a state that President TrumpDonald John TrumpSenate advances public lands bill in late-night vote Warren, Democrats urge Trump to back down from veto threat over changing Confederate-named bases Esper orders ‘After Action Review’ of National Guard’s role in protests MORE won in 2016. While Trump carried Indiana by 19 points, Donnelly still has a small edge in polling in the toss-up race.

Libertarian Lucy Brenton, a business consultant who unsuccessfully ran for the Senate from Indiana in 2016, will also participate in the debate.

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See The Hill’s live updates from the hourlong debate below. The debate starts at 7 p.m. 

Candidates make their final pitch

Updated at 8 p.m.

In his final pitch, Donnelly said he would fight for health care and jobs while working with both parties.

“It’s not about R or D or red and blue. It’s about the red, white and blue,” Donnelly said. 

Braun, who has been casting himself as a political outsider, used his final 30 seconds to contrast himself with Donnelly, who he argues would be “more of the same.” “I’ve done things in the real world. This gentlemen is a career politician,” Braun said. “That’s part of the problem.” 

Donnelly, Braun get in heated exchange over pre-existing conditions

Updated at 7:58 p.m.

The question over the anti-ObamaCare lawsuit that could unwind protections for those with pre-existing conditions elicited one of the most heated exchanges of the night.

Donnelly lashed out at Braun for supporting the lawsuit, calling on Braun to denounce it.

“I can hardly believe you’re standing here and telling everyone you’re for coverage of pre-existing conditions,” Donnelly said to Braun. “Tell us you’ll denounce that lawsuit, you’ll denounce that effort on pre-existing conditions.”

For Braun’s part, he touted the health insurance he provided at his own business, saying that he’s the “only one here who had the nerve to take on insurance companies.”

“I would never be for any replacement of the Affordable Care Act unless it covered pre-existing conditions and it didn’t have any cap on coverage,” Braun said. “The government always wants to do stuff and they never worry about the cost of it, wouldn’t count on career politicians doing it.”

Donnelly sounds positive note on Trump’s approach abroad

Updated at 7:54 p.m. Asked about the U.S. relationships with its allies, Donnelly said he supports Trump’s approach.

“I support President Trump’s efforts. I want him to be successful,” he said. 

“When a president is successful, that means the United States is successful.”

Braun praised Trump’s stance that NATO countries pay “their fair share.” 

“Thank goodness he’s taken on this stuff that others were either too politically correct or just unwilling to do,” he said. 

Audience member asks emotional question about gun laws

Updated at 7:42 p.m.

A mother in the audience asked the candidates if they’d support a “safe storage” gun law since her 4-year-old son was killed at a babysitter’s house that left out a fully loaded hand gun.

Donnelly said that he supports the Second Amendment, but “believes the rights come with responsibility.” He said that the safe storage law “needs to be looked at.” The Democratic senator also called for the gun show loophole to be closed.

“We have to make it that there are some standards, not just rights but some responsibilities as well,” Donnelly said.

Braun called for looking into enhanced school security in the state and also taking a look at mental health in the context of gun violence.

“When it comes to things like storage, the places where we’ve tried to use gun laws generally impact folks who are law-abiding,” Braun said, adding that he’ll work to “always keep guns out of the hands of criminals.”

Candidates asked to weigh in on Roe v. Wade

Updated at 7:37 p.m.

Both candidates dodged questions about whether they think Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion, was correctly decided. 

Still, Donnelly said he is a “pro-life” senator — even though the leading anti-abortion groups endorsed his opponent. 

“I am a pro-life senator … I believe in a stance that protects all life,” he said. 

But, he said, he supports exceptions for rape, incest and when the life of the mother is in danger. 

Braun said supporting exceptions is Donnelly “trying to have it both ways.” 

“When he says he’s pro-life, I don’t think he can have it both ways,” Braun said. “I would never demonize anyone that disagrees with me, but you can’t have it both ways. I’m the one being endorsed by the organizations that know where your heart is.” 

Donnelly, Braun both pick Republican role models

Updated at 7:25 p.m.

Asked about their “political role models”, Donnelly said the late Sen. John McCainJohn Sidney McCainThe Hill’s Campaign Report: Bad polling data is piling up for Trump Cindy McCain ‘disappointed’ McGrath used image of John McCain in ad attacking McConnell Report that Bush won’t support Trump reelection ‘completely made up,’ spokesman says MORE (R-Ariz.) and Braun said former Sen. Tom CoburnThomas (Tom) Allen CoburnTom Coburn’s annual gift to taxpayers Joe Biden still doesn’t have a campaign theme The Hill’s 12:30 Report: Drug companies inch closer to COVID-19 vaccine MORE (R-Okla.)

When McCain ran for president, Donnelly said, “he said country first, and that’s what this should be about is our country — how to make it so our children and grandchildren — we leave them a safer and stronger America.” 

Braun said Coburn was “never afraid to bust the government.”  “He was honest. He would speak up, and that’s what you’re going to get out of me.” 

Health care becomes wedge issue

Updated at 7:15 p.m.

Donnelly hit Braun on health care in his opening remarks, highlighting the significance the issue has taken in Senate campaigns this year. 

Donnelly said he was the final vote to “save health care,” referring to his vote against the GOP’s ObamaCare repeal attempts last year. 

He also hit Braun for supporting a lawsuit led by 20 Republican attorneys general that argues ObamaCare is unconstitutional, and criticized the health care Braun offers his employees. 

“He has every time tried to take away pre-existing coverage, and he supports a lawsuit today that would do that,” he said.

Braun defended his insurance plans, saying it “might not be the perfect plan, but it’s a great plan.” 

“I took on the insurance companies when no one else would,” he said, noting his company kept premiums flat for 10 years.

Kavanaugh confirmation quickly grabs the spotlight

Updated at 7:10 p.m.

The first question of the debate revolved around the contentious Supreme Court fight over Brett KavanaughBrett Michael KavanaughGOP senators urge Trump to back off Murkowski threat Judd Gregg: A government in free fall The 7 most anticipated Supreme Court decisions MORE’s confirmation.

Braun has lashed out at Donnelly for voting against Kavanaugh’s nomination. Donnelly explained that his vote opposing the confirmation came down to concerns over “impartiality and judicial temperament.” He also touted that he backed Trump’s first Supreme Court pick Neil Gorsuch.

“I voted against Judge Kavanaugh because of concerns about his impartiality and concerns about his judicial temperament,” Donnelly said. “My job is not only to determine the nominee but to protect the court. Justice Gorsuch met every test.”

“Mike [Braun] was for Judge Kavanaugh on the first day,” Donnelly added. “If President Trump put up Bugs Bunny, Mike would have put him up on the court.”

Braun pushed back, accusing Donnelly of joining Democrats in obstruction of Kavanaugh.

“I think what you should have gotten from the recent spectacle, Democrats including Joe Donnelly will do or say anything when it comes to their political interests,” Braun said.

“It’s a blood sport — it’s a decision based not on what Hoosiers want but what [Senate Minority Leader] Chuck SchumerChuck SchumerOvernight Health Care: US showing signs of retreat in battle against COVID-19 | Regeneron begins clinical trials of potential coronavirus antibody treatment | CMS warns nursing homes against seizing residents’ stimulus checks Schumer requests briefing with White House coronavirus task force as cases rise Schumer on Trump’s tweet about 75-year-old protester: He ‘should go back to hiding in the bunker’ MORE [D-N.Y.] wants.”

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As Rumors Mount Zinke's Days Are Numbered, Warnings About 'Man Behind the Curtain' Who Could Take Over Interior

While President Donald Trump and Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke have both maintained that, at least for now, Zinke will remain in his post despite ongoing ethics probes, as rumors continue to mount that his days in the administration are numbered, so do concerns about his second-in-command, David Bernhardt.

“He is the guy behind the curtain who’s manipulating everything.”
—Jim Lyons, ex-Interior staffer

As the Interior Department’s deputy secretary, Bernhardt would likely take the helm if Zinke resigns or is fired. Bernhardt worked his way up to serve as solicitor of the department during the George W. Bush administration.

After that, as the Washington Post reported Monday, he worked as a lobbyist for polluting industries—which means that now, he has “so many potential conflicts of interest he has to carry a small card listing them all.”

Rep. Jared Huffman (D-Calif.)—a critic of the department’s approach to California water issues, from which Bernhart had to recuse himself for a year—and others have called him “a walking conflict of interest.”

“He is the guy behind the curtain who’s manipulating everything, which he can do with his wealth of knowledge and experience,” Jim Lyons, who served as deputy assistant secretary for land and minerals management under the Obama administration, told the Post.

As Jeff Turrentine of the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) warned last week, Bernhardt’s “long Washington résumé suggests that he would happily continue to carry out the Trump administration’s war on public lands and federal waters—albeit with greater legal sophistication and fewer unforced ethical errors than his predecessor.”

But even as Zinke’s No. 2, Bernhardt has played a key role in shaping policy. As the Post detailed:

Asked about calls for efforts to curb the global climate crisis, the Post reported that “Bernhardt said he had virtually no legal obligation to act—even though climate change is already raising global temperatures and Interior scientists warn it is harming land and key species under the department’s control.”

He’s been a guiding force behind the administration’s efforts to overhaul the Endangered Species Act, bringing together Fish and Wildlife Service officials and political appointees to craft an a formal proposal. As the Post noted:

Noah Greenwald, endangered species director for the advocacy group Center for Biological Diversity, described the proposal as “death by a thousand cuts.”

“If Americans think they’ll be getting a better secretary of the Interior once Zinke’s out, they’re sadly mistaken. They’ll just be getting a shrewder one.”
—Jeff Turrentine, NRDC

Various progressive groups have raised concerns about Bernhardt’s goals at the department and conflicts of interest, given “his long history working as a lobbyist for Big Oil and Big Ag.”

The Western Values Project, for example, has issued a report on his time at the department, filed records requests to gather more information about his service under Trump, and, in a lawsuit filed last month, alleged that his ex-clients “began receiving sudden and dramatic windfalls only months since his swearing in.”

While acknowledging the lawsuit, Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik concluded: “Bernhardt’s putative conflicts all have the virtue of deniability. At least one or two steps separate Interior actions from benefits flowing to his former clients, so who can say that he’s violating his explicit promises to recuse himself? But that deniability could make an Interior Secretary Bernhardt much more dangerous than the hapless Secretary Zinke.”

Turrentine concurred, writing, “Zinke needs to go, but not just because of his shady real estate deals and pricey travel habits. He deserves to lose his job over what he’s done to public lands such as Bears Ears and Grand Staircase–Escalante—shrinking their borders and imperiling sacred lands to appease industry—and to our federal waters, 90 percent of which he wants to open up to oil and gas drilling.”

“But if Americans think they’ll be getting a better secretary of the Interior once Zinke’s out, they’re sadly mistaken,” he added. “They’ll just be getting a shrewder one.”

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